"Dierich", "Dietrich","Dedric an Shane (Ireland)
Beitrag von Michelle Hatch:
It's me..Michelle Hatch from the US. While you are snoozing I was browsing these links. It's been two hours! I'm just overwhelmed because I have no idea where many of these baptism, wedding, or funeral records relate to as far as "places". And, I don't know what words like Kurbez. and alter mean. Or what this means---VN vater/ort and the symbols underneath that column. Example- V:Lrz./UR????? Ort may mean "place"?
I think I'm in over my head (so to speak) on this German research. There is one positive note! I think I am convinced my GGGGGGG-Grandmother's surname was actually old German "Dierich" to "Dietrich", as opposed to "Dedric" because I have seen hundreds of Dietrichs. My German anscestors most likely had a particular dialect and when speaking in conversation, Dietrich might have sounded "phonetically" like Dedric.
According to a family bible from about 200-years ago, the inscription read Dedric. Her given name was Mary, which could have been a form of Marie.
My GGGGGGG-Grandfather was an Irishman. His name was Michael Shane (or maybe McShane) b. 1673 in Northern Ireland. He emigrated at 22-years old (1695) to Berlin, and most likely by ship to Hamburg, and over land to Berlin. He met and married a German girl, Mary Dedric, but I have no idea when. A German member of the onomastik.com forum (that's I how found this site) said that the name Shane may have been 'eingeduetscht" (Germanized he said) to Shön, Schön and that's exactly what I think happened after Michael came to Germany and got married.
Mary amd Michael had (3) sons and (1) daughter. Their son Thomas (my GGGGGG-Grandfather) immigrated to the "new world" and another brother followed about 10-years later. His name may have been Peter. I found two Palatine ships with Shanes; a Thomas and a Peter. Their names on the passenger lists were Johan Thomas Shön and Johan Peter Shön. Once they came to port in Philadelphia PA the men who wrote their names when taking the oath of allegience wrote "Shane" for Thomas.
So, you may see how I am tying all of this together. I may never know about the lives of Michael and Mary, but I have to know about Thomas, because he was our 1st generation here in the "states."
If you could give me the link to the proper forum here I would like to copy and paste this into a post. Maybe there's someone out there who can help me.
Sorry for the rambling...I have appreciated your help here. Thanks!
I think I'm in over my head (so to speak) on this German research. There is one positive note! I think I am convinced my GGGGGGG-Grandmother's surname was actually old German "Dierich" to "Dietrich", as opposed to "Dedric" because I have seen hundreds of Dietrichs. My German anscestors most likely had a particular dialect and when speaking in conversation, Dietrich might have sounded "phonetically" like Dedric.
According to a family bible from about 200-years ago, the inscription read Dedric. Her given name was Mary, which could have been a form of Marie.
My GGGGGGG-Grandfather was an Irishman. His name was Michael Shane (or maybe McShane) b. 1673 in Northern Ireland. He emigrated at 22-years old (1695) to Berlin, and most likely by ship to Hamburg, and over land to Berlin. He met and married a German girl, Mary Dedric, but I have no idea when. A German member of the onomastik.com forum (that's I how found this site) said that the name Shane may have been 'eingeduetscht" (Germanized he said) to Shön, Schön and that's exactly what I think happened after Michael came to Germany and got married.
Mary amd Michael had (3) sons and (1) daughter. Their son Thomas (my GGGGGG-Grandfather) immigrated to the "new world" and another brother followed about 10-years later. His name may have been Peter. I found two Palatine ships with Shanes; a Thomas and a Peter. Their names on the passenger lists were Johan Thomas Shön and Johan Peter Shön. Once they came to port in Philadelphia PA the men who wrote their names when taking the oath of allegience wrote "Shane" for Thomas.
So, you may see how I am tying all of this together. I may never know about the lives of Michael and Mary, but I have to know about Thomas, because he was our 1st generation here in the "states."
If you could give me the link to the proper forum here I would like to copy and paste this into a post. Maybe there's someone out there who can help me.
Sorry for the rambling...I have appreciated your help here. Thanks!
Michelle,
would you tell us more details, some birthdates or places from your german ancestors. "Dietrich" was a very popular name ....
admin
Unfortunately, due to a lack of record keeping, we do not know these details. I am pursuing a lead to aquire a 100-year old copy of a program written by a SHANE anscestor here in the USA. He wrote it for a family reunion back in 1913, and it reflected upon the history of our anscestors from 1700 on. I read about these things in copies of the minutes they kept preserved. There was another one mentioned that covered 1610 and on! I would give anything to see those documents, but I have no idea who may have kept them. Maybe nobody bothered. That would be a travesty. I need to move quickly...his oldest living anscestor is 84-years old. I am phoning him today.
All I know is what I posted: Michael SHANE (or the clan name McSHANE) emigrated specifically to Berlin in 1695. This is where he met Mary? "DEDRIC", although I do not know when. Michael had to travel from Northern Ireland to Hamburg, and then on to Berlin. I don't know how long this venture would take. Then he woud have to settle and met his future wife, and eventually begin a family.
If they had four children, then this would have had to have spanned 8-years if he kept the poor girl pregnant! So, maybe a time period from 1700-1710 and later for childbearing. I definitley know my descendant Thomas immigrated to the new world prior to 1770s because thats when his son Jacob SHANE was born, my descendant. The SHANE surname "stuck" here once he came to port. I am leabing toward the possibilty Michael's surname was "Germanized" to Shön or Schön.
Maybe the Palatinite community is the key? Also, where would the Irish immigrants tend to settle? I hope this helps...it's all I have.
All I know is what I posted: Michael SHANE (or the clan name McSHANE) emigrated specifically to Berlin in 1695. This is where he met Mary? "DEDRIC", although I do not know when. Michael had to travel from Northern Ireland to Hamburg, and then on to Berlin. I don't know how long this venture would take. Then he woud have to settle and met his future wife, and eventually begin a family.
If they had four children, then this would have had to have spanned 8-years if he kept the poor girl pregnant! So, maybe a time period from 1700-1710 and later for childbearing. I definitley know my descendant Thomas immigrated to the new world prior to 1770s because thats when his son Jacob SHANE was born, my descendant. The SHANE surname "stuck" here once he came to port. I am leabing toward the possibilty Michael's surname was "Germanized" to Shön or Schön.
Maybe the Palatinite community is the key? Also, where would the Irish immigrants tend to settle? I hope this helps...it's all I have.
Michelle
ok.
Your Journey starts in Berlin. Maybe this Mr. Buchholz could help you with a detail. Thomas left germany, right? Passengerlists?
About McShane´s (Mac Seáin):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McShane_(name)
http://www.clanmcshane.org/
Maybe the Chief or another person of the clan, could tell you something about Michael McShane or his parents.
To Dietrichs ....later
Your Journey starts in Berlin. Maybe this Mr. Buchholz could help you with a detail. Thomas left germany, right? Passengerlists?
About McShane´s (Mac Seáin):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McShane_(name)
http://www.clanmcshane.org/
Maybe the Chief or another person of the clan, could tell you something about Michael McShane or his parents.
To Dietrichs ....later
angeleye
I read over both those websites. In fact, I e-mailed the administrater and wanted to join, but haven't heard back. I was researching the SHANE origin. So, back to square one. Most of my assumptions about Michael Shane's surname are just that...assumptions based on the family records we do have here. I have always wondered why Michael changed his surname after emigrating to Germany, because I sure can't find any SHANES there. Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong...it's safe to argue that Michael did not speak the German language, so in his Irish brogue, who knows what his name pronunciation sounded like. Perhaps the Shane surname just evolved to another spelling. That's where I got Shan, Shön, and Shön. I found "Thomas Shön/Shan/Shain" etc., and often with Johan(n) attached on many ships from Germany. I don't think he would have gone back to Ireland with his family...it was not a good place to be during those years. That's why I haven't bothered with passenger lists from Ireland. Also, the SHANES were a part of the Pennsylvania German settlements, and both wives of two of my grandfather's were German (Swartz/Swarz and Dimm). This is why I feel they were part of the Palatine mass immigrations. My Irish lineage and direct connection to Ireland has become less of the focus I'm afraid. This is why I am wondering why Michael chose Berlin? There must have been other Irish immigrants who found refuge there, and maybe there was an Irish community in Berlin. These are my thoughts.
Yes, the passenger lists...I found a Johan Thomas Shön on the Queen Elizabeth in 1738. I just don't know if this is my Thomas. There is no trace of where he went after coming to port in Phildelphia. A Thomas Shane did show up in 1748, ten years later, in PA, but again, I have no information on his spouse or children. I am working on that research here in the states.
I e-mailed Mr. Buchholz. I am not in the position to hire a professional. I was just laid-off from my teaching position, so my finances are poor. I have to rely on foreign web-sites that allow me to search records online or post inquiries. It's pretty frustrating at times.
Yes, the passenger lists...I found a Johan Thomas Shön on the Queen Elizabeth in 1738. I just don't know if this is my Thomas. There is no trace of where he went after coming to port in Phildelphia. A Thomas Shane did show up in 1748, ten years later, in PA, but again, I have no information on his spouse or children. I am working on that research here in the states.
I e-mailed Mr. Buchholz. I am not in the position to hire a professional. I was just laid-off from my teaching position, so my finances are poor. I have to rely on foreign web-sites that allow me to search records online or post inquiries. It's pretty frustrating at times.
Michelle
Well, i think he didn´t changed his name. They often wrote the names how they heard it, and thats the problem right now.
A piece of the puzzle is always missing...
Where do you have the first entry of Thomas Shane. How is the name there written?
Its late...see you tomorrow
A piece of the puzzle is always missing...
Where do you have the first entry of Thomas Shane. How is the name there written?
Its late...see you tomorrow
angeleye
Well, while you were sleeping, I was sleuthing. This is the best explanation of the Shane surname I have found. I am having an Irish historian clarify the counties of Northern Ireland in the mid to late 1600s. Knowing this and the demographics of Northern Ireland, specifically the clans, religions, and surnames may help me zero in on my grandfather in his new country. I hope so!
"...Recorded as MacShane, McShane, Shan, Shane and Shone, this is an Irish clan surname. It derives from the pre 12th century Gaelic "Mac Seain", translating as "son of John". The name was introduced into Ireland in the 7th century a.d. "John" is the most popular of all the original Hebrew and later Christian given names. Every country in Europe has its examples, and it is estimated that there are over seven hundred spelling forms ranging from the original "Yochanan" though the medieval "Johann", to the patronymic and diminutives such as Johnson or Aujouanet, and the Czech Janvosky. It is not surprising that in such a religious nation as Ireland that the name should be prominent, but surprisingly the clan "MacShane" is in at least three quite distinct and apparently, unrelated, septs. In Ulster and the county of Louth, the Mac Shanes, (the spelling varies throughout Ireland), are a branch of the famous O'Neills, who were originally the leading Irish clan. The County Westmeath McShanes, also recorded as Shane, were a branch of the O'Farrells, whilst in County Kerry, the name MacShane was assumed by the original Norman settlers Fitzmaurice, presumably in a show of (later) Gaelic solidarity..."
Michelle
The passenger record from Thos. Shane from 16. Sept. 1738, Ship Queen Elizabeth is defnitly not the right one, if Michael is born 1673.
Just two links:
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_th ... inames.htm
http://www.rootsireland.ie/ifhf/terms.php
.. we should wait on details of Mr. Buchholz.
Just two links:
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_th ... inames.htm
http://www.rootsireland.ie/ifhf/terms.php
.. we should wait on details of Mr. Buchholz.
angeleye
Hello my German comrad (-:
1673 is Michael's birthyear. In 1695, Michael was 22-years old. That's the age he left Northern Ireland. So, by the time he crossed the sea to Hamburg, and made his way to Berlin, it would have been??? How far is Hamburg from Berlin? We have to consider the method of travel, which a researcher in Germany suggested was horse and wagon. I don't know anything about the geography of the land, or even how long it would take to go by ship from a port in Northern Ireland to Hamburg. (**It took about 6-8 weeks to go by ship from Rotterdam to Philadelphia PA, and they only crossed the ocean between April and October because of ice, etc.)
Thomas had to be born (realistically) c1700 or after, because Michael had to meet his future wife and begin his family! Thomas was the 3rd son, so we have to figure in the length of time betwen preganancies. So, if this is my Thomas, he would have been born c1700. The ship's manifest gives that Thomas's age as 38-years old. Makes sense doesn't it?
Unfortunately, Mr. Buchholz can't do my research due to time constraints. He gave me a list of researchers to hire. I receive unemployment compensation since I am laid-off from my teaching job. I would have to know up front how much these people would charge me! So, I may be out of luck with this quest for now.
I know! I could hire a psychic and have a seance....hahahahaha.....I'm kidding of course ;-)
I am going to look at these links.
Michelle
...still laughing about the last joke.
My GGGG-father was still missing and a few months ago...i ve found the connection...don´t give up!
Makes sense doesn't it? - Yes, Yes, Yes!!!
Hamburg - Berlin (300 km)
I´m sure that this was a long journey. Maybe days ...
I continue to search for you...
angeleye
PS: If there is a person in this community who do business with the members here, i will delete the account immediately. This is a non-comercial-website.
My GGGG-father was still missing and a few months ago...i ve found the connection...don´t give up!
Makes sense doesn't it? - Yes, Yes, Yes!!!
Hamburg - Berlin (300 km)
I´m sure that this was a long journey. Maybe days ...
I continue to search for you...
angeleye
PS: If there is a person in this community who do business with the members here, i will delete the account immediately. This is a non-comercial-website.
Michelle
Well, here's the real joke...and it is NOT (for obvious reasons) something I usually tell people...but I am actually a medium "by default" I could say. I was born with this ability. Runs in the family, but no such luck in getting any help from beyone the grave! I actually sat here the other night asking "anybody" from beyond the grave to give me a sign, but I can't get anyone to answer me! )-:{ It never works when "I" want it to or for my convenience, hahahahha.
That's great about your discovery! Unfortunately, I am going back seven generations and in two foreign countries. I had no luck on the first web-site. records are almost impossible to find prior to 1700. The second site...same problem, although I did e-mail the administrator for advice on wnat to do next.
About your PS--I received a message from that forum topic about church records? and this man just gave me someone's e-mail; a Mr. Buchholz, who replied that he couldn't do the research. He did give me a list of people to contact, but they are "for hires" and I am unable to do that. Is that ok?
Nooo, I won't give up, but I may have to focus on Thomas alone---in Berlin and elsewhere in Germany---as opposed to his parent's. The key here may be to find Mary? Dedric/Detrich/Detriech through a marriage, birth, or baptism record. That would be great!
That's great about your discovery! Unfortunately, I am going back seven generations and in two foreign countries. I had no luck on the first web-site. records are almost impossible to find prior to 1700. The second site...same problem, although I did e-mail the administrator for advice on wnat to do next.
About your PS--I received a message from that forum topic about church records? and this man just gave me someone's e-mail; a Mr. Buchholz, who replied that he couldn't do the research. He did give me a list of people to contact, but they are "for hires" and I am unable to do that. Is that ok?
Nooo, I won't give up, but I may have to focus on Thomas alone---in Berlin and elsewhere in Germany---as opposed to his parent's. The key here may be to find Mary? Dedric/Detrich/Detriech through a marriage, birth, or baptism record. That would be great!
Michelle
It´s me again!
This is the first time, i read some background to irish names. I´m a member of onomastik.com - so i´m interested in name meanings, too.
The families of County Limerick, Ireland, page 17 and 19
http://books.google.de/books?id=pKm6DKr ... &q&f=false
angeleye
I copied this from GenforumGenealogy.com" after putting Berlin into the search. Was Berlin different in 1695? Also, this is odd, but right after I replied to th last post, the name "Sonia" (sp) came to me! How would that name be spelled in German? The same?
"... When Prussia took over the territory around the Polish city of Poznan they converted it into a new German state called POSEN and they changed the name of Poznan, itself, to POSEN also.
Your first problem is determining if the old records you have refer to the city or the state. Knowing only the state is rather useless because there are no indexes for the records of an entire state.
If the record is refering to the city of Posen you are still not out of the woods. Before the time of civil registration of births, marriages and deaths all records were recorded at a person's church. In a large town like Posen the number of churchs could be in the multiples of dozens.
The best solution to be had would be if these folks came from a village in the state of Posen. Of course you would have to discover the name of the village but if you can the records search would be relatively easy with the proviso that the records still exist.
Never write off, out of hand, the existence of any old records. The ship's passenger manifests of the Norddeutcher-Lloyd shipping line located in Hamburg, Germany, still exist even tho' the allies firebombed Hamburg so fiercely that a firestorm erupted and killed, at one stroke, one third of all the German civilians who died in the war..."
"... When Prussia took over the territory around the Polish city of Poznan they converted it into a new German state called POSEN and they changed the name of Poznan, itself, to POSEN also.
Your first problem is determining if the old records you have refer to the city or the state. Knowing only the state is rather useless because there are no indexes for the records of an entire state.
If the record is refering to the city of Posen you are still not out of the woods. Before the time of civil registration of births, marriages and deaths all records were recorded at a person's church. In a large town like Posen the number of churchs could be in the multiples of dozens.
The best solution to be had would be if these folks came from a village in the state of Posen. Of course you would have to discover the name of the village but if you can the records search would be relatively easy with the proviso that the records still exist.
Never write off, out of hand, the existence of any old records. The ship's passenger manifests of the Norddeutcher-Lloyd shipping line located in Hamburg, Germany, still exist even tho' the allies firebombed Hamburg so fiercely that a firestorm erupted and killed, at one stroke, one third of all the German civilians who died in the war..."
Michelle
....you have to find the needle in a haystack.
That´s the wrong way. Write e-mail to me and give me the next generations, with dates and then we will see...
Wir müssen das Pferd von hinten auzäumen (put the cart before the horse)
- bad english, sorry
That´s the wrong way. Write e-mail to me and give me the next generations, with dates and then we will see...
Wir müssen das Pferd von hinten auzäumen (put the cart before the horse)
- bad english, sorry
angeleye
"I copied this from GenforumGenealogy.com" after putting Berlin into the search. Was Berlin different in 1695? Also, this is odd, but right after I replied to th last post, the name "Sonia" (sp) came to me! How would that name be spelled in German? The same?"
Sonia = Sonja in german and Berlin was not different.
Tell me what you entered exactly at GenforumGenealogy.com
Sonia = Sonja in german and Berlin was not different.
Tell me what you entered exactly at GenforumGenealogy.com
angeleye
Sonia = Sonja in german and Berlin was not different. THAT"S WHAT I THOUGHT> THANKS!
"Tell me what you entered exactly at GenforumGenealogy.com"
This is the page I have opened:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/s ... oolean=AND
The first time I put in "Berlin Germany"
I'm waiting for the last reply...I wish we could just chat somehow. I have a Yahoo e-mail and chat...would that be an option? I feel bad we have to go back and forth so much. My PC is a dinosuar and slow, lololol.
"Tell me what you entered exactly at GenforumGenealogy.com"
This is the page I have opened:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/s ... oolean=AND
The first time I put in "Berlin Germany"
I'm waiting for the last reply...I wish we could just chat somehow. I have a Yahoo e-mail and chat...would that be an option? I feel bad we have to go back and forth so much. My PC is a dinosuar and slow, lololol.
Michelle
I added you as my friend...your my only one. I thought that may help with the darn Shoutbox. Oh well, I tried. Let's see, it's about 10 PM there? I am going to eat dinner. I am also giving you my yahoo e-mail. Look in your private e-mail inbox. If you open account, we can easily chat there. It's up to you.
Michelle
Michelle